Open Mouth, firmly insert foot, Corporal Dale Carr

That is exactly what Corporal Dale Carr seemed to be doing last night , in an on air-interview with a reporter from Vancouver CTV 6 0’clock news. ( I am trying to locate a working link to the clip, however the CTV news archive player is not working- email me if you have a link) Carr was trying to address how the public has a perception that the officers were standing there doing nothing, no CPR etc, when in fact, he says, they were doing continuous monitering and Robert Dziekanski was alive when medical help arrived.

Not so, says the reporter, according to internal security radio broadcast transcriptions obtained from YVR, that Dale Carr obviously had not seen yet. The security radio transcripts tell another tale, one of a man with no pulse, no respiration, and a different version of the timeline the RCMP are giving, of what occurred after Dziekanski went down . Gone immediately was Mr. Carr’s professional demeanor and he was immediately on the defensive. Whose notes were those, and how could they have know what the officers were or were not doing considering they werent there? Blah, blah, blah. He cannot understand how they were accurate, he would like to see them etc…

And so on. But the damage was done.

He was caught off guard by the CTV Vancouver reporter who had information he did not, and it made him look bad- really bad. He really needs to learn when to just shut his mouth and say no comment. Really.

But it gets worse.

Richmond fire dept arrived on scene , and they say Dziekanski was dead when they arrived, and that the officers even refused to take his handcuffs off for further assessment, as they still considered him a threat. ( ????)

 It just keeps getting worse for these cops. I watched the video again, and yes, I will say that it looks like they checked his pulse maybe once or twice, but ” continuous monitering”? I don’t see it.

This is all about damage control, and not about justice and answers. The RCMP cannot quash all the evidence, all the time, and thank god there are reporters who think of things like getting  security radio transcripts before the RCMP get them- because you can bet the public would never have even heard about them. Thank god the Richmond Fire Rescue is speaking up that he was in fact dead when they arrived, not alive as the RCMP are claiming.

I was brought to uncontrollable tears again today as I watched the video , and this morning as I write this, I am filled with both abject sadness and anger at Robert Dziekanski’s death. At the RCMP’s response. At the injustice’s that are, in fact, occurring behind the scenes, behind closed doors as you read this- and you and I both know it’s happening. I would like to believe the truth will prevail, but the cynical side of me tells me I’m dreaming. What do you think about what is going on now? How do you feel about all of the investigations?

I wish there was something I could do to change it all.

I’m Laila Yuile, and this is how I see it.

24 thoughts on “Open Mouth, firmly insert foot, Corporal Dale Carr

  1. Also, read the Custom’s white wash of this:

    The CBSA report was one of four probes, including a provincial public inquiry, into the death of Robert Dziekanski on Oct. 14.

    Alain Jolicoeur reported the results of the CBSA investigation.

    * No one from the CBSA has spoken to Dziekanski’s family since the death, or offered an apology.
    * No one will be disciplined, because the investigation found no wrongdoing.
    * 30 officers were on shift at the time, but no one could find Dziekanski when a family call came through asking for his whereabouts, because they assumed he would be in the secondary investigation area.
    * When the call came, no one checked to see that he had actually passed through primary investigation three hours earlier, even though that information should have been available.

    The report acknowledged the following failures.

    * CBSA lost track of Dziekanski for more than six hours. According to a timeline issued by CBSA, Dziekanski arrived at 3:20 p.m., passed primary inspection at 4:09 p.m. and wasn’t again identified until 10:40 p.m., when he tried to exit the CBSA hall.
    * (when he tried to exit the hall) a CBSA officer advised him he needed to go to secondary, and directed him toward that area (but) Mr. Dziekanski spoke little or no English and a Polish interpreter was not readily available.
    * A call from Dziekanski’s family was made at 7 p.m. to CBSA, but they couldn’t confirm that Dziekanski had made it through primary inspection.

    I suppose the conclusion is the CBSA processes are busted if in spite of the individuals’ best efforts a man died on their watch.

    Here’s the recommendations by the CBSA to remedy the system.

    * more cameras,
    * improved interpreter services
    * the option of more patrols and security checks within the CBSA secure area at Vancouver International Airport.
    * people referred for further examinations will report to the secondary examination area within a “reasonable amount of time,”
    * stepped-up patrols and better communication between travellers and those awaiting their arrival.


  2. lailayuile

    thank you tomax7, for the link, for posting the results of the report – and for the other comments you have posted. I love hearing from my readers, and finding out what’s on their minds- good or bad!
    His death pains me on so many levels- as a mother, the daughter of immigrants, and at the most basic level of the human condition. I do agree with you that the officers are guilty of involuntary manslaughter, although unfortunately, they are all walking and enjoying the holiday season as free men.


  3. Injustice

    Oh, Laila, I gave you so much more credit than this. “The officers are guilty of involuntary manslaughter, although unfortunately, they are all walking and enjoying the holiday season as free men.”

    I thought that people were innocent until proven guilty – you know, the reason why we have investigations and trials?

    Your rush to judgement characterizes so much of what we have seen from the media generally, but particularly on this story.

    Shame on you. Let the investigators do their work and wait for ALL the information.


  4. lailayuile

    I’m sorry that you feel I have somehow disappointed you, but that’s how I currently feel, and I’m not ashamed to let it be known that’s my opinion. If I am presented with something different other than what I have seen, that feeling might change, but it stands. I think if you know me, or feel you know me, then you would know that you could easily tell me your thoughts without having to hide anonymously behind a nickname online. Differing opinions make for wonderful debate, and keep in mind, I am NOT a journalist, or a member of the media. I am a writer,and someone who likes to explore the issues, but I don’t pretend to be unbiased and un-judgmental- I can be, when it is required, but this is my personal blog, and where I reflect and explore subjects I find interesting.

    Forgive me for having little faith in the system, Sometimes it works, many times it doesnt. It’s overloaded at the best of times, completelyy ineffective at the worst. We have criminals that threaten the safety of women and children walking free, while petty thieves who’ve stolen cigarettes are doing time. The penalty for beating your dog is more severe than for beating your wife- and I should know.

    The basis for pressing charges is based on the crowns belief for a likelihood of conviction. If witnesses are likely to recant, back out or refuse to testify, or if its first offence,etc, etc, charges are sometimes dropped, the whole thing let go….. you get the idea.

    Thank you for letting your views be known. I always welcome comments from readers,good, critical or other.


  5. Simon

    Re: Robert Dziekanksi

    Dziekanksi was throwing chairs and computers at the window. Would you do that if you got lost at the Warsaw airport? No, of course not. These were not the actions of a “frustrated tourist”. Clearly, he was suffering from some sort of physical / mental episode. So, prudence demands that the man be regarded as unpredictable and inherently dangerous.

    The police approach. Dziekanksi has barricaded himself somewhat behind some chairs. But, he initially puts up his hands like he will surrender; maybe this will turn out okay. But then he walks away and goes to the counter, where he picks up a stapler. Would you do that if confronted by four Polish police officers? Of course not.

    So now we have a man, who is 6′9″ (that’s HUGE), acting in a violent manner (smashing things IS violent behavior) and who appears to be mentally unstable for unknown reasons. And now he’s armed with a stapler (don’t think that’s dangerous; let me throw a stapler at your head and see if you want to get hit with it).

    Clearly this guy must be dealt with and must be restrained. This is not the time to look for a translator and figure out why he’s acting this way; those questions can be answered when the man is in custody and no longer poses a threat.

    Have you ever gotten into a fight with someone who is 6′9″? Pudgy, middle aged, or not, that is someone who is physically capable.

    But, there were 4 police officers, so maybe a police officer should have tackled him and the others piled on? That sounds good, but whoever tackles him may find their skull caved in with a stapler. And if not, the fight is still on and now Dziekanksi has access to four guns. If the police don’t take immediate action, Dziekanksi may throw the stapler

    Believe it or not, there are no secret police karate moves. If not for the Taser they would have had to duke it out with Dziekanski. That would result in injuries to him and the police.

    What about pepper spray? It’s not fast enough, it’s not 100% effective, and indoors it may have incapacitated the police officers as well.

    The police did exactly the correct thing; they used the taser on an armed (blunt force weapon) man.

    Even good old Mr. Pritchard, immediately after the incident, supported the police action. It wasn’t until much later, after he looked at the video, that he changed his mind. That tells me that a reasonable person, in the situation at the time, would have done the same thing as the police.

    The first question should be: was the use of the Taser proper? Yes, it was.

    Second question: did the Taser kill Dziekanksi? Most likely not. Google “pepper spray death” and you’ll see that in the 1990’s, before Tasers, people were “dying” from pepper spray. In the 1980’s, before pepper spray, people were “dying” from police “choke holds” and positional asphyxia.

    The common factor in all of these deaths are that people act in violent and unpredictable ways, they get arrested and some use of force is required, and then they suddenly die. What’s REALLY killing these people? That is the important question? Is there a way to prevent it? Also important.

    But, “Taser death” headlines sell newspapers, so the media is unlikely to stop their sensationalization of this issue for some time.


  6. GetReal

    All I can say to that is giddyup. tomax7 and laila may be interested in the following letter to the editor of an Alberta newspaper I found researching “big cops” of yesteryear ala tomax7, you will like this guy tomax7:

    Red Deer Advocate LETTER TO THE EDITOR Re:

    Mary-Ann Barr’s column about Tasers.

    I am a retired RCMP member who served on the Red Deer City Detachment in the
    late 70’s and early 80s.In her column, Ms. Barr, asked a question that I
    feel must be answered. She asked, ‘ What did the RCMP do before Tasers?
    They didn’t go around shooting agitated unarmed suspects’.Perhaps I can
    enlighten her, and others of the same mind. The answer is very simple, in
    many cases, in order for us to subdue them and effect the arrest we busted
    their heads, broke their bones, and basically, beat the hell out of them. We
    didn’t have any choice in the matter. We didn’t have anything like tasers
    or pepper spray that we could use to easily effect the arrests with a
    minimal amount of danger to ourselves, bystanders, and the suspects. We
    didn’t even have nightsticks or bulletproof vests.

    The downtown area of Red Deer in those days, was an extremely wild place.
    Every night the rowdies would congregate in the downtown, bar area. There
    were bar brawls on a regular basis, drunken street fights, and the heavy use
    of drugs. To combat the problem, the Force supplied us with a paddy wagon
    in which to arrest these rowdies. I worked the downtown, bar area in the
    paddy wagon for two and a half years. Every night we would face overwhelming
    odds in policing this downtown area. It was a common thing for each of us to
    be involved in at least half a dozen full blown, knock ’em down, drag ’em
    out fights on our night shifts. You learned very quickly that when a person
    is crazed on drugs, in a severe agitated mental state, or drunk, many of
    them have superhuman strength, and feel no pain. You can’t hurt them by
    hitting them or knocking them down. They would just keep coming at you. It
    was most difficult to subdue them. If they were unarmed we could sometimes
    take control of them using keen wits, our training, and a couple of ‘holds’
    that we were taught. These holds would render them unconscious within
    seconds if properly applied. However, there have been documented cases
    where people have been severely injured or died after having been subjected
    to these holds.

    But if the suspect was armed with a weapon, whether it be a knife, broken
    bottle, a club, or weapons of many different descriptions, now what do you
    do? You have to get close enough to safely disarm the suspect and
    physically subdue the person. Because we didn’t have anything except our
    sidearms to handle the situation, many of us bought our own nightsticks.
    These could sometimes be used to disarm the suspects. In most cases the
    suspects received many sorts of injuries, as did many of us in the fracases.
    In some cases, sidearms were used because we had no choice but to bring the
    show of deadly force into play.

    So, Ms. Barr, maybe you get the picture. When we were faced with a ‘crazed’
    person, whether they were on drugs, booze, or in a mental state, in order to
    ‘Maintain the Right’, uphold the law and preserve the peace as we had been
    sworn to do, we didn’t have anything like pepper spray or tasers to answer
    the threats. It came down to a very dangerous game of ‘hand to hand’
    combat. Many police officers and suspects have been injured or killed trying
    to do just that, when a simple zap from a taser would have easily removed
    the threat. In most cases this would be accomplished much more safely than
    the way we had to do it ‘in the old days’. Try giving the members who
    patrol our streets the benefit of doubt and quit trying to be armchair
    quarterbacks. Remember that they have to make split second life and death
    decisions while everyone sits back in their easy chairs and/or bars tools
    and ponder the outcome over coffee or beer. Try marching in their boots
    just once, and see how you fare. I can guarantee you, you won’t like it.

    Jim Thoreson


  7. But, there were 4 police officers, so maybe a police officer should have tackled him and the others piled on?

    Umm, why do they have to tackle him in the first place? No one in the RCMP knows the international sign of “sit down” or “follow me”?


  8. “in order for us to subdue them and effect the arrest we busted their heads, broke their bones, and basically, beat the hell out of them”

    …ah, for the bad ol’ days.

    One knew back then when you po’d a cop off, you were in deep doo doo.

    Now? Doesn’t matter, lawyers or judges will get me off.


  9. GetReal

    Alas, you have never heard of Apache Pass. Such a sheltered life.

    Simon, I think your observations are a bit to stout for dear tomax7. Methinks he would pale at the stories my father used to tell me about the war and the remote logging camps and mill towns.


  10. Get “Alas, you have never heard of Apache Pass. Such a sheltered life.”

    What the heck does Fort Bowie and Apache Pass have to do with a death of a man in the custody of the RCMP in 2007?

    Me thinks you have a bad short in your logic circuits from all the rain and dampness.

    Or do you pay GST on that stuff you smoke?


  11. …while we’re at it, let’s not forget the battle of Hastings.

    Speaking of logging camps, I know an old timer (83) logger who lost his brother when a tree decapitated him after falling it…

    So pale? Maybe, but come on, grow up and let’s not belittle each other.


  12. GetReal

    If you have not heard of Apache Pass (Prince Rupert, BC) in the same context as Red Deer then the logic is lost on you.

    If you do not follow your own wish for the big cops clearing bars with their bare hands in the old days, then Apache pass and Red Deer context is lost on you.

    If you do not know about the wild west in days gone by and how the law was applied in the remote logging camps by the RCMP, then the point is lost on you.

    If you cannot understand the war context, then that is also lost on you.

    The way things were done in the days of the “bar clearing” by big cops and the ancilliary anecdotes thereto such as Apache Pass, are OVER. Modern case law, public expectations, massive oversight by the media, etc, etc, etc, have dictated the present. A discourse on the fine tuning of public policy is and should be an ongoing entreaty. In this age of instant gratification, it seems persons such as yourself do not get it.


  13. Simon


    In the other thread you said that you don’t hate police but “hate the system that is turning out effeminate politically correct ones and is spoiling/corrupting those who wanted to be true cops.” I think the response belongs here.

    By your rationale, you want police to all be big, burly, manly, non-politically correct ones?

    That shows a one-dimensional appreciation for what policing is all about. I would say a small percentage of a police officer’s job is actually fighting. Should we disproportionately favor that job skill over others in selecting police officers?

    What about intelligence to investigate complicated cases, a friendly demeanor to deal with victims and the public, a strong work ethic to get them through those long night shifts, strong morals and good old common sense? Should the police not hire females, since effeminate behavior is not desirable to you? Is that really a step in the right direction.

    As for political correctness…do we not want our police acting in a professional manner that is respectful to the whole of society?

    Wow, you really are from Alberta.


  14. GetReal

    Well, Simon, you extremest you. You have contributed to the withdrawal of tomax7. The least you can do is hire him now to teach you how to use a computer.

    I miss ol’ tomax7 already. Nobody to slay on the wordy battlefield of digital anarchy. All this common sense has left me hankering for some ‘brew’ with Billy Bob and Betty Joe.

    Hows the possum huntin’ down your way?


  15. Simon

    Don’t worry, Get, I believe I can replicate Tomax’s eloquent argument style.


    Quote one line of Get or Simon’s post.

    Select sarcastic word or phrase.

    Post link that is vaguely related to selected quote, but not really, and that paints a negative picture.

    Make derogatory comment about people from B.C.



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